I aten’t dead

And I will actually get back to work one of these days. I’ve been fully occupied, since the 8th, with a subject dear to my passion and my fury, rape and sexual assault. Unfortunately, those that are not just willing but enthusiastic in spreading rape apologia all over the place are abundant, and well, all over the place. The thread I was involved in went to over 4,000 comments, and only stopped there because comments were closed. The apologia has been since picked up in another thread or two. Things have finally quieted down, and I’ll probably need a day or three to decompress, cope and get back to what passes for normal.

My thanks to every single person involved in the Don’t Be That Guy campaign, you are all brilliant, compassionate people, and that campaign needs to go everywhere.

There is absolutely no way to thank all those people who joined us, took a stand and made their voice count. There is absolutely no way to thank all those people who took the time to thank me, your support is utterly priceless. There is absolutely no way to thank all those who came forward with their stories. There is absolutely no way to thank all those who are now positively adding to the Bystander Effect, and happily letting apologists all over the net know that rape apologetics are wrong, wrong, wrong, in every and all ways.  You all have my heart. Always. Thank you.

Credit and thanks to Skeptianthro
Credit and thanks to Skeptianthro
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24 thoughts on “I aten’t dead

  1. Thank you, Hekuni Cat! ♥

    And I’m out again, for today and the rest of the night. Things are just ramping up all over again, so I’m going to go cuddle my tablet and read. :D

  2. Caine,
    I just want to apologize for being unreasonably coarse with you in my comments in the “Grenade” post on Pharyngula. Others names [NoR & Jadehawk, for starters] should’ve been included to share in the critical review, but you unfairly received the load. It was rather reactionary, no doubt, and you didn’t deserve to be the target like that. And you took the high road in response.

    I read the OP and every comment (which some in the Horde absolutely refused to grok), but I did misinterpret your comment about telling someone to off himself, as that appears not to be the context in which you meant it. That would’ve been cleared up in my next comment, but down went the banhammer. The vile comments by others, however, were later correctly pointed out in the thread. I’m sure the majority of Pharynguloids do understand that’s unacceptable, though.

    Fwiw, the ban likely wouldn’t have happened so quickly had F5 been applied before posting, whereby PZ’s comment about taking a break would’ve been seen. But as far as he saw, the rules were being intentionally violated. No big deal now, as it’s obvious I’m no longer welcome there.

    Anyways, keep up the fight against the nonsense (but give ‘em a goddamn chance).

  3. Hey, «bønez_brigade», no worries. I really appreciate the apology. I am sorry you ended up banned, but at the point you posted, everyone was past twitchy, including PZ. Too many asses stomping on too few nerves.

    As for the diaf type remarks, yeah, they are *not* approved of in any way by regulars, and generally speaking, those get stomped on, hard. I do remember seeing one, and I didn’t take the time to call it out because I was busy replying to about 3 other people at once, but that was wrong and I should have taken the time out.

    As for what often seems to be an unnecessarily harsh approach, I think Dalillama in the Epic thread had a good point, and explanation. There does come a point that sheer experience almost becomes intuition, and it doesn’t take long at all to know what type of person you are dealing with. That’s not an excuse in any way, however, it does go a long way in explaining what appears to be unnecessary vitriol in most cases. All that said, yes, education seriously matters, and all manner of approaches are effective. I will remember what you said, though, and I appreciate it.

    As for not being welcome at Pharyngula, well, I expect once things had been straightened out, you would have been just fine. It might be worth an email to PZ – I’d back you up, too.

  4. Thank you, A. I’m reading Richard Kadrey for the first time – his Sandman Slim series. Hardboiled detective type stuff, only with magic, hell and other assorted interesting stuff. :D

  5. Sounds like a grueling experience. Thank you for fighting the good fight. Hope the decompressing is effective. I’ll be interested to hear what you think of Sandman Slim–got the first on my kindle, haven’t gotten to it yet.

  6. Thank you, Rene. Sandman Slim…well, very much in the hardboiled detective story vein. Something like a cross of Mickey Spillane and Carl Hiaasen. Vulgar, terse, fairly rich characters. More hard charcoal sketch than a detailed oil paint. Kadrey makes you invest in the book if you want the backstory. So, vulgar detective type story, with little regard to splash damage and a fair amount of eyeroll worthy sexism, but over all, pretty good.

    The book has the standard cast of characters you’d expect, along with magicians, alchemists, demons and angels. The book is based on standard biblical myth, which was a tad disappointing, I would have liked to see a more expanded mythological involvement, but what is there works well. (When it comes to god mythos, I prefer someone like N.K. Jemisin.) I wouldn’t say the characters are instantly likeable, but they do grow on you, and there are a few genuinely intriguing characters. All set in L.A. culture, which he has down to a T. (Saying that as a native Southern Californian, who spent a lot of time in L.A.)

    Bits of the story are tea snort laugh; others, a dry, dark, hoarse chuckle. Over all, a good story. I’m just now starting the second in the series, I’ll see after that whether I’m going to go for all of them.

  7. Caine, you really are a sad human being.

    We should err on the side of believing claims of abuse, yet you chose to have someone banned on Pharyngula who claimed to have been sexually abused. Why? Because they were skeptical of PZ’s motives and disagree with your brand of feminism.

    So much for “shut up and listen” and checking one’s privilege. Congratulations, you absolute fraud, you just silenced someone who claimed to have endured sexual abuse.

    I’m not sure how you manage to look yourself in the mirror.

  8. Pardon me? I don’t choose to ban anyone on Pharyngula, Clydey, er, Jim. If you’re speaking about Rogi Riverstone, you’re wrong. At one point, she was placed in auto-moderation and I was under the impression she still was, so yes, I sent an alert. PZ told me she had been released from auto-mod. That’s the end of it. Rogi’s comment is still right where she left it.

    So here you are, wrong again. Don’t you ever get tired of being wrong? This little instance of doucheweaselry could have been easily prevented, couldn’t it? You could have simply asked if the person was banned, then you could have spared yourself embarrassment, but no, you’d rather make up your own “facts”. I’ll thank you to spare me your idiocy.

    If you ever have anything truthful and intelligent to say, I’d be happy to listen. Otherwise, no.

    Edited to Add: Also, Rogi Riverstone is free to post as much as they like. I had nothing to do with her only posting once. I suppose she had nothing else to say.

  9. Whether she was banned or put in auto-moderation isn’t particularly relevant. You sent an “alert” with the intention of getting her banned.

    Why on earth would that be your first response to that post? Someone speaks about their abuse and, presumably because they don’t agree with you, your instinct is to try and silence her by sending an alert to PZ?

    How is that even remotely consistent with anything you or the folks over at FtB claim to stand for? Please, explain why you aren’t a hypocrite.

  10. So, you’re a mind-reader now? No, my intent was not to get her banned. My intent was to do what I’m supposed to do as a monitor, which was to alert PZ to a person who may be breaking the rules, that’s all. If I send an alert because I see someone who, as far as I know, was on auto-mod, it’s to give PZ that information. From there, it’s up to him to deal with it.

    As to why that would be my first response? Answered, right there ^. FFS, there are a handful of us, who have to watch out for trolls, sockpuppets, assorted people attempting to get around bans and so forth. Why is this difficult for you to understand? That is all it was. Now, as I have stated, I was unaware at the time that Rogi had been released and was free to post again. Because of your comments, Jim, I will change one thing I have generally done, I will no longer announce if I have sent an alert. I was unaware of how it came across, and I don’t want to upset anyone by doing so.

    Seems to me you just want, very badly, for me to be this awful, horrible, evil person. If that’s what you wish to think, fine. I’m much too exhausted to bother with changing your mind, it’s not that important to me. That said, I think you’re probably more upset that I didn’t respond to Rogi’s post. (I am seriously trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here.) I did not respond to Rogi for a few reasons. I do feel very sorry for the pain she has been through, I know what it’s like and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. I do not agree with her particular viewpoint that men discussing incidents such as rape are oppressing women. I also don’t agree with her that PZ’s post constituted a betrayal of all rape and abuse victims. I’m both, and I don’t feel I was betrayed in any way. Rogi got quite a few facts wrong, such as stating it was nothing more than unsubstantiated gossip.

    Now, I don’t think getting into an argument with her or telling her how much I thought she was wrong would have been in any way helpful. My prior experience with Rogi also informed my decision to not respond.

    I understand you may not like a single thing I just said, and that’s fine. However, you do not get to show up at my blog and tell me what my intentions were or are. I’m always happy to tell anyone what my intentions were or happen to be. I do understand you did not get to finish arguing with many people at Pharyngula, and I’m sorry about that, but you don’t get to take all that out on me, either.

    I have been patient, Jim, and I have taken the time to answer your questions. That’s the end of it. I’ve had a very rough week, I’m weary, and today my pain levels are through the fucking roof and making me a bit crazy, so I only have so much patience to go around. That means no more games, okay? I’m not a whipping boy for you or anyone else. So, I will end with this: I am sorry you misunderstood about sending alerts, and I am sorry that the decision I made in not responding to Rogi is upsetting to you. I can see why it is upsetting, and I understand, however, I do sometimes have to make such decisions in my own interest, as well as in the interest of others. The situation with Rogi was a bit of both. I hope all this helps a bit. Goodnight, Jim.

  11. Thanks for the response. Now, don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t you respond like that on Pharyngula? There was no hostility, just a reasonable explanation for why you sent the alert. That might come across as patronising, but that isn’t my intention.

    One thing that does confuse me, however, is that everyone seems to have ignored her post. I thought someone would have at least engaged her on what she said.

    I’m sorry to hear that you’re dealing with physical pain. I suffer from psoriatic arthritis from head to toe, so I can relate.

    And thank you for acknowledging that I didn’t get an opportunity to finish the recent discussion. I’m not a troll and never have been. I have no idea why I was banned and I know a lot of other people who are honestly trying to discuss these issues feel the same way about their bans.

    Anyway, have a good night.

  12. Oh fuck, I’m just reading up on that now. Bad, nasty, vomit-inducing.
    I’m definetly not sorry I was on a holiday *hugs*

  13. @Caine,
    I appreciate your support; and thanks for posting the clarification on the thread. No worries about the ban, though. I emailed PZ right afterward, but I realize he’s a busy dude and has more pressing issues than random blog commenters/dungeonites.

    Dalillama’s point about intuition was mostly on target, in that commentarial categorization can (sometimes) be quickly applied. But, in addition, they showed that Pharyngulites aren’t at all free from jumping to shit conclusions whilst waxing logical. As you previously mentioned, Pteryxx’s approach is a certainly fine one for laying down some serious education. The “Many Methods Model” is likely our best way(s).

    Anywho, as a side note, one really gets a sense of what it’s like to be a creobot when facing the rapid resistance of a dozen fiery Horde commenters. It’s a bit difficult to keep up with the responses and the full context/history of each reply with such a demanding deluge. And the gutter appears inevitable, even when both sides are on the same side. Kinda puts things in perspective for future interactions with solo resistors.

  14. Jim, thank you so much for the nice response – that means the world to me, you have no idea.
    I can see where explaining an alert could avoid a lot of misconceptions, but I think it could also lead to a lot of yelling matches, too. I think perhaps I’ll stick with not saying anything at all, with the proviso that if someone does ask why, or wants to, I will provide as full an answer as possible at the time.

    As for why no one responded to Rogi, well, I have a couple guesses. When Rogi first showed up at Pharyngula, she was, um, very loud and demonstrated a marked unwillingness to pay the slightest bit of attention to anyone else. It seemed to a lot of people that she gets stuck on one track and repeats. (This is what I remember, mind, and I can’t even remember what threads she was posting in.) I imagine some people remembered their first encounter with her, and didn’t want to go for a second. I’ll take the risk of assuming that some people felt as I did, that she was wrong on multiple levels, but didn’t feel like hurting someone who had been so badly victimized, and I expect some people thought she was a poe or sockpuppet.

    I’ll be the first one to grant that it’s not at all nice for anyone to assume ‘poe’ or ‘sockpuppet’, but at this point, I think most of the regulars at Pharyngula are suffering from thread shock. It’s been well over 5,000 comments at this point, adding threads up, which is enough to do anyone’s head in, especially when we’ve all been battered (in the ocean batters rocks sense) with countless sockpuppets and a variety of particularly vile trolls. These are reasons, not excuses. I do feel like shit about Rogi, Jim. I wish that I had some way to reach out to her in which she would listen and our common bonds could help. Maybe that will happen one of these days.

    Psoriatic arthritis? Yikes. You have all my empathy. As for you being banned, for the record, I had nothing to do with it! (Yep, coverin’ my arse here.) I really don’t know what that was all about, but I will say that everyone has been highly twitchy, for days on end, and it probably didn’t take much to get on PZ’s nerves. Bad days, all around.

  15. «bønez_brigade», well if you want back up, just holler. Be happy to provide it.

    Yes, the horde can be too quick to jump, I’ve been guilty of that, to be sure. And dogpiles are fucking hard, no matter who is getting piled. It happened to me in my first year at Pharyngula, and I’ll testify, not fun. At all.

  16. Giliell:

    Oh fuck, I’m just reading up on that now. Bad, nasty, vomit-inducing.
    I’m definetly not sorry I was on a holiday *hugs*

    Oh, I’m glad you were on holiday. No one needed that temporary insanity.

  17. A metric fuckton of *hugs* and moral support, Caine—blended together and slooooow-roasted over apple wood.

  18. Thank you, Cicely. I’m sorely in need of those hugs. It never fails that when stuff like this happens, it *always* happens when Rick is away at work. Not that the monster dogs, too many cats and all the rats don’t help out, they do. Mostly they bug me for food, though. :D

  19. Hi, Caine. I just came here to send *hugs* your way, because I’m mostly out of words right now. So, *hugs*. Lots of them. And thank you for everything you did on those threads (I came back from holidays too right in the middle of that whole mess).

    And I’m glad the dogs, cats and rats are helping out. I turn to my animals too when some people decide to remind me of just how awful human beings can be. It helps getting through those moments.

  20. Thank you, Nightjar. Hugs gratefully accepted. I think anyone who was on holiday for all or part of that thread is very lucky – good timing. Yes, animals help, a great deal. So do having tentacles to work on and a copy of The Hobbit to stick in the player.

  21. I’m sorry this is late, but *many hugs and lots of chocolate* I’m very happy that Amelia and all your animal companions were there when you needed them. Take care, Caine.

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